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So I'd like to know that how do we choose the right humor for a professional audience?

I would say that think about why you're using the humor. You're using it to connect and you're using it, again, framing it as a love language.

as a way to sort of, I mean, to bring people together, but to say things that are important and say things that you wouldn't say directly. When you're using humor at work in any context, I would say the only appropriate use is for connection. So does it go through the filter? Is this going to connect people? I'm a comedian, but I talk about how to use humor as a tool for connection. It would be counterproductive for me to go up and shit all over the audience. It would be fun, but for me personally, and I'm not generally, I know people do it very, very well, but to me,

Even in a club, I usually prefer to take the view of it's not funny unless everyone is laughing. From writing for Letterman and Ellen, to helping leaders bring the room to life, Beth Sherman knows how to make words work. If your team's falling asleep, it's not their fault. Your story needs a glow up. Get ready to laugh, learn, and lead like never before.

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Today's guest is a seven time Emmy award winning comedy writer known for her hilarious contributions to shows like Ellen DeGeneres show, Letterman and The Tonight Show. Now she helps speakers and business owners use humor to connect, communicate and captivate. Welcome to the Unlocked podcast, Beth Sherman. How are you?

Well, thanks for having me and thanks for the alliteration.

That's all right. Yeah, I know. It's almost like you gave that information to me, but who knows? Right. It was good fun. Yeah. I've got to start this right straight off from the beginning, which is what was the first joke that you ever told that made you realize, hey, I'm pretty funny.

Well, I wasn't, I didn't say it on purpose. How's that? And I got in trouble for it. So I come from a family in a culture that, that is, a good sense of humor, East coast Jewish. mean, there's sort of, if you can't laugh, you'll cry. And in my house in particular, it was the language we spoke. When I was in second grade, which would be about seven years old, I was in math class or sorry, if your audience is British, it's math class. I've sprayed my microphone, but the teacher, so the teacher said, who

wants to learn Roman numerals. And I said, without thinking and without trying to be a jerk, I said, let's not and say we did. And I got a big laugh, but I really wasn't trying. I was a shy little kid and the teacher lost it. mean, her head exploded. She came over, she grabbed me, she took me out of the room and they'd sort of divided the kids up into the lowest, the highest math, the kids that have a future.

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And I mean, the awful ways they don't do it anymore, but the kids that they're going to put some effort into, and then there's, you know, other levels. And I was in the higher one and she took me out, brought me across the hallway to another classroom, which had the kids that they were not putting quite as much effort into. Again, this is horrible, but said, if you don't want to learn, this is where you should be.

Ow.

And I mean, I didn't want to go to school. It became family legend because I didn't want to go to school the next day, but I didn't actually tell anyone what had happened. And I hid. So then my mom thought I'd left the house and then walked through, what do you call it here, the mud room or, you know, sort of walk through the room where all the coats and everything are and discovered me hiding and scared the crap out of her. But then she had to I had to tell her what happened. And then she had to not laugh. But I think I think it's one of the first times I had a sense of the power of humor.

It's infectious. Your story sounds very similar to one of my magic shows where I was pulled off stage because it's just something being highly inappropriate. But I think we're going to probably have lots of connections there, I think.

I didn't know. I genuinely, people said, were you the class clown? No, I was shy and wanted to be invisible. That's why I spent most of my career, a lot of it behind the scenes before I had the guts to go out in front and hold a mic.

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Fantastic. Well, I'm really curious about it because I think there's this thing that we often think that we're funny and I've come from a family where my dad was a storyteller, my granddad was a storyteller and I think I've probably adopted a lot of those principles and I think that I'm funny. Probably really not. I'm probably just like really sarcastic and just it's just terrible. But I'd love to dive into this about how can we inject humour into communication, into life and to professional world. But before that, your backstory.

is fantastic and you've worked with some amazing people. Obviously you're a seven time Emmy Award winner. So give us a little snapshot of your backstory of how you've got to where you are now.

Well, improbably. So it wasn't a direct line, but when I was a kid, I grew up in a house where I sort of took it all for granted. I guess if you grew up when your parents are musicians. I my parents were, my mother was an occupational therapist and my father worked in public relations for a big insurance company. You would have called it internal comms now. so, and this was in Philadelphia. It's on the East coast of the U.S., about 90 minutes from New York, but just nowhere near show business. The only claim to fame in our area was that there was a neighbor's mom who

was an extra in Rocky. That was in the Rocky movie. That was it. Wow. So I wanted to be a journalist, mostly because I'd watch these magazine shows and it seemed cool what they did. They got to go different places and every week it was something else. And that seemed about right for my attention span. And there was a sitcom that I really liked called Murphy Brown that was about a journalist. And I enjoyed the show, even because it was fiction, I guess. But one time a magazine show, the type that this show was based on,

it was about someone that worked at a news magazine show, they did a behind the scenes. And in this behind the scenes, they didn't just focus on the actors. They focused, they showed this magical place called the writer's room. And this was where there was like 10 guys, mean mostly guys, around a conference room table. And their only job over the course of the week, so one person would get assigned, they would break the story to figure out the story together. One person wrote the draft. And then over the course of the week, the room's job was to make this script funnier.

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not just funnier, but funnier in the voice of each character. Because that's important. so, but to me, 15 year old me thought, that's a job? These people are getting paid for it? These are funny people who get to spend eight hours or 10 hours or 12 hours, it was TV, it was production, in a room with other funny people and their only job is to one up each other, is to see who can make it the best.

funniest and get the biggest laugh. And genuinely, once I knew that was a job, it was the only thing I wanted to do. And I went to university. studied TV production, but honestly, I should have just studied history or something that interested me, because it was Boston, the hotbed of sitcom production, Boston. But then I moved to Los Angeles and worked my way up as a production assistant, writer's assistant, and then got opportunities to be a writer. So basically paid my dues and

Writer's Assistant is where you're in taking notes, which I guess is all AI now, but you got to be in the room. You didn't get to contribute, but you got to be in and listen and see how it was really done. And then you write your own stuff for other things. And I got opportunities and then they continued, fortunately. But that, you know, so I spent several years at, there were a few shows where I spent longer and then.

So Ellen and Letterman and Leno and then started working on a lot of award shows and lot of specials. did shows like Screen Actors Guild Awards a few times, the Oscars a couple of times. And the weird little superpower that those jobs give you is not just how to write in someone else's voice, it's how to be funny in someone else's voice. So how to take, because we all...

Hmm, yeah.

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Communication is we can all say the same words, but how can we make them just a bit more engaging? Either all the way to funny or just simply a bit more engaging and personal. How can we own what it is that we say?

Wow. So I'm really fascinated about this because there's a guy, forgive me, I'm going to...

not credit me, but he's a magician. he you might know him. He works in a lot of screen writing and the writers room for a lot of big comedy shows. I'll try and his name. I'll edit in some sort of AI voice or something over this. But he talks about this experience of the writers room. And I was fascinated by this, this whole experience of like, well, you're going to write something and there's an idea for a joke. But how do you even know if it's funny? Because it's not your own voice. Like you said, it's someone else's voice that you're trying to write it for. So I'd love to know about this experience of what is it like in that writing room? Because I'm sure like to pardon the phrase, there's a lot of dick

swinging as the thing is, you know, so how do you like pitch to go? I think my idea is like the best. So tell us about what went on and what happened during these writing room.

Well, would say dick swinging is kind of accurate. And I came up at a time when I was a lot of the time the only woman in the room. I'm also so saw a lot of it was a different era and things have changed. I would still say almost like sports. still is. Women are not. There are women who are athletes, but generally culture does not encourage us to be funny. And so there are fewer women in those rooms. The good head writers put those rooms together.

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like a baseball team. And by that I mean, or I guess a football team. Whatever. Pick your sport. But where you want different people who are good at different things. You want one person who's just, can just throw out line after line after line. You want someone else who might just sit in the background for a while, but whenever they open their mouth, it's good.

You want someone that usually there's, so you kind of have, you want a mix of people. It's hard to get your voice heard. I think it takes time and experience and patience and mentoring to figure out how to get your voice heard. I know for me, I'm five foot nothing and I'm a woman in a room full of big loud guys who really enjoy the sound of their own voice. So it quickly became apparent to me that I wasn't going to be the loudest person. Just physically. couldn't just.

And I didn't really do it on purpose, but I found that when I would get jokes in, when I would score jokes or land something, it was when the room was quiet. Because I guess what all women do is we figure out how to work smarter, not harder. But it was when the room was quiet. And so I became a sniper. Not again, not really on purpose, but that's sort of what worked. So everyone would have a lot of ideas. And then what

succeeds in the best rooms, it's peeling the onion, right? So there's a lot of sort of the obvious stuff, and then you get to stuff that's better, and then you think, yeah, but we kind of heard that before. What's the twist? How can we make it just a little bit different? How can we go beyond what the audience expects? Because, right, we all watch things and we think, it's fine. I've seen it before, but how can you really sort of surprise people? But again, still staying in the lane of what's in this person's voice. What's the truth of the situation? So

Yeah, I, years of hearing, of pitching things and hearing the guy next to me just repeat it and people go, that's a great idea. I was like, I've been saying that.

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Aw yeah.

I would just wait till the room was quiet and pitch. So I found that worked. But also really in writers rooms, it's comedy as a team sport played by a bunch of introverts, weirdly, but comedy is a team sport because you need, you need it. You can't do it in a bubble. You need a reaction from other people. So in those rooms, they are also people who are all very passionate about humor. They want to laugh.

I mean, they don't want you to succeed. want you to die so they can do better. But they... It's like any competitive thing, right?

Of course, yeah.

But they love it. So there's a pleasure. We all love that dopamine hit of enjoying something. So it's definitely as competitive as it is. Your colleagues do want to laugh, if for no other reason that you can move on to the next thing.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

And, you know, when it's also when it's two in the morning and you still, you know, the bosses has killed everything beforehand. When you get something, you go, when you get a buy, when you get a yes, yes. Great. We love you. Cause we can go home now.

I'm assuming like you must have had some crazy deadlines. I'm sure I remember you saying at the Professional Speaking Association, there was a couple of instances where you'd literally just wrote down the joke or the script and you were handing it to Ellen or someone and they were then just going, yeah, yeah, okay, good. And then they were going to deliver it like immediately. So how do you get into that? Like, oh my God, we've got this deadline quick. How you going to even make something like really funny? Is that where the best ideas come from with the last minute thing?

Yeah, there's a lot of us with ADHD in this business. What is a problem in other parts of our lives is an asset in this. So part of it is just wiring. Part of it is experience. Most of the shows that I worked on for my career, they were five day a week shows, five night a week shows. mean, Ellen, it's five shows a week.

Leno Letterman, all those shows. You just do it over and over again. And as great as the show is, you show up at work the next morning at eight and you go, well, what do we have today? So, so you sort of get used to that and you're always working towards, well, we tape at four 30. So something's going to happen. So I don't know what it's going to be, the thing is empty. It'll be full by four 30. Uh, yeah. And with Ellen, the way it worked there is we would rewrite the monologue with her. We would, someone would be assigned. We would pitch ideas for it.

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Yeah.

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Someone would be assigned each day to write the monologue and would have it ready the night before, the day before, would come in, read it with the producers, then Ellen would get in a little bit later in the morning and we'd end. So we'd have to make the changes or solve the problems or the issues. Find alternatives for the issues that the producers pointed out. No way to say.

And they were always such great notes. Wonderful, wonderful notes that always made things better. As everyone's bosses tend to, yeah. Feedback from a boss is always wonderful. But then we would go, so then we would rush to sort of update it, and then we would bring it into Ellen, and she would read it, and there would be things she liked and things she didn't. Hopefully they were just a handful. But sometimes,

What's feeling Beth like at that point? Because this is your hard work. Please God, know, please I'm hoping Alan's going to love this.

So it be one person. So there'd be one name. So she would sort of be reading something. And there were four, five, six, depending on how many writers in that room, in her dressing room or her office at that point in the day. So maybe five or six writers, three producers, executive producers. And Ellen would be reading something with her reading glasses on. to herself, would face down, face looking down at the paper.

And then if it was your day that you wrote it and there was a phrase in there or a joke or a punchline that particularly tickled her, she would sort of look up over the glasses and repeat the phrase. And you could tell something had landed well. So that felt great. I mean, I was a big Ellen fan. I remember watching her on Johnny Carson. I don't know, for the Americans, it was sort of, I don't know who you'd compare it to, I guess, Graham Norton or maybe more Parkinson, because it was someone that we all grew up with.

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Yeah.

You know, seven years old with an ear infection, got to stay up late. You know, got to watch something at 11.30 before my parents went to bed. So it was a real treat. And making someone that had really entertained you as a kid enjoy something, that was pretty cool.

Yeah, absolutely. Well, I'm sorry. Sorry, Beth.

No, I was going to say, if you hear a weird sound in the background, that's my printer deciding to reset for no apparent reason.

that's how selfish of the printer. Very nice. Thank you. Well, I'm really curious for this because I love I'm a big fan of so I've actually this is true story. I've actually sat at the desk of Jimmy Fallon. Yeah, yeah, it's but it's not like as glamorous as it sounds. It's that thing where you can go on a tour and you can go sit on it. Have you seen this? There's like a tour.

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Told it I was recording.

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Yeah, every show I worked on we'd sort of go, okay, rehearsals over, leave because the tram with all the tourists is coming.

That's it. Yeah, it was so cool. And I had to read a monologue and it was really cool. But it's really hard to do it. But I loved it. But I love all the American comedies. love Saturday Night Live and I love watching Please Don't Destroy. Is it Please Don't Destroy? Have you seen this? like they've kind of like replaced the Lonely Island. So there's three boys and they're all in the writers room for Saturday Night Live. But they've made their own sketches in their own movies now. And it's basically just a skit comedy.

of them trying to write jokes, but they include all the celebrities that turn up on Saturday night live. It's hilarious. But just, yeah, it's really good. But I just love the whole process of going, how do you even know, like, if something is funny? Because like in a room where you're like in there with all the other guys, like it's not an environment where you're in a room with like, you know, like stand-up comedy or as a magician, we've got an audience that's live. So how did you even know? Like, yeah, I think the show is gonna be really funny.

Honestly, people laugh they... Yeah, but you can when you're with other people. They laugh or they don't. I've been around the best people in the... People who the top comedians in the business who will go, is this anything? Is this anything? Because you need an audience. So they laugh or they don't. It's reductive.

Yeah.

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But or at least they react or they don't. And you can tell that especially when it's people who are jaded and not rooting for your success, when they laugh. Yeah. But it's true when they laugh, then it's emotional connection and it's kind of involuntary. I mean, that's why humor is such a powerful tool for connection, because it's emotion. Happiness is an emotion. And if you can make someone feel something and have that involuntary reaction of a smile or

or laugh, it's immediate feedback.

Absolutely.

And so it's, I mean, think about what you do with your partner or your spouse.

Well, mean, think of some of the things that you do with your partner. But have you ever sort of asked for forgiveness just by trying to make your partner smile? Yes. And they couldn't be more irritated with you. But you can still get a smile. You can get something. You smile, a crack. But if you can do that with someone who's literally angry with you, it's certainly possible to do it with strangers. But it is. It's really just

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You're saying things between the lines. Everyone knows what's happening.

Mm, yeah, yeah. It's so funny because as a magician, like we have like a framework where it's, know, we perform a certain trick and routine and it's like that kind of Malcolm Gladwell thing of the 10,000 hours of mastery. Some of my best lines that I believe are now funny because they get a laugh because they're just repeated. You know, it's done so many years. It just happens naturally. But those lines just kind of evolved over time. Whereas when I was first doing it, it didn't happen. I remember like one of the greatest lines that I had was at a summer party.

And I just had this stock line, which I just asked the question, which was, does anybody know the difference between a magician and a mind reader? And some drunken guy was like, it's about three hundred pound mate, innit? I went, that's gold. That's amazing. And then that's kind of like come into like my routine and going, well, so it's quite useful to just keep, you know, doing these things and just doing it over and over because these things just start to happen. go, I got a laugh. I'm going to add that in. I'm Yeah, absolutely.

Because it's feedback, right? It's necessary. And there are things that some of the best laughs. So part of it is repetition and just getting, it's not just feedback once, it's getting feedback over and over again. Cause I do a lot of one-to-one work with speakers who are professional speakers. mean, a lot of first-timers, but people who make five figures every time they go on stage. But there are things we can write great stuff, but with TV shows.

there's rehearsals. You rehearse stuff all week to see where the funny is, where the reactions are. With the daily shows, we would go in and Ellen would rehearse the monologue. We would rehearse the comedy with every TV show. You know, you go and you rehearse the comedy. And if you can get the camera guys to laugh, then you got something.

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I was going to ask that, yeah, because who would be in that audience? That's right. Yeah.

Because they've seen everything. They're not giving anything. They're looking at their phone and smoking a cigarette. They're barely paying attention. They've seen everything for 40 years. So if you can get a reaction from them, then you know. But it is iterative. You don't know until you do it. And we watch these Netflix specials and it looks like someone's just coming up with these ideas off the top of their head. No, they've done this material 10,000 hours. It's not just the craft of delivering it. They've done that material.

and found every breath, every pause, every eyebrow, every tagline, so every extra punchline to it, every transition, because they've done that material a couple of thousand times. mean, and so part of it, well, when I try to explain to people what's funny, it's just truth is funny. That's it. That's all you need. You don't need to be clever. You don't need puns or dad jokes. They're nice. It's all fine if that's what you enjoy. But just truth is funny. And all we do as comedians is observe and report

truth. So sometimes, and the two kinds of truth that work very well are self-awareness and specificity. So just acknowledging what your audience might be noticing or thinking about you or the situation. So not putting yourself down, not being self-deprecating, just being aware of what, you know, reflect back to people what's in the thought bubble above their heads. And specificity is just if truth is funny, then details are hilarious because they're relatable. But for self-awareness,

So I have, instance, so, you in the first third, first quarter of my talks, I often show, explain, you know, last 30 years, I've spent the last, the comedians are very good at connecting. We have to be because nothing else we do works. We have to be because if we can't connect with our audience, nothing else we do works. I've been a comedian for the past 30 years. I'm ruining my own material.

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It's that time of day. I just realized, no, I say that afterwards, but it's that I've spent the past 30 years as a comedian and as a writer for other comedians and TV shows. These are some of the shows I've worked on. That's the end. And I have a slide that has a lot of fancy logos. So it's Ellen and the Oscars and Letterman and a bunch of Netflix specials and just lots of, look how important she is. But the line that comes after that.

which was just a total throwaway that I said once, which was, well, these are the shows I'm willing to admit to. And to me, it sounds like nothing. I wouldn't have written it down. But in the moment, it got a laugh. And now I say it every time because it got a reaction. So it clearly touched a nerve. And with humor, a lot of times it's self-awareness. And we can also say a lot of things between the lines with humor. In the same way, when you're apologizing to your partner, you're saying, I'm really sorry, I was just a jerk.

Yeah.

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I'm also saying this looks fancy, but there's a lot of... I paid a lot of dues before I got to do that. I'm not just trying to impress you. We all have a journey.

Yeah.

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Yeah.

But I think so much as just being aware of what strikes people.

Yeah. So this is really interesting because like yourself, in my, so I'll have a structure when I present doing a keynote or doing a presentation, I'll have a structure that I'll follow and then I'll go off. So we model a lot people in the Confident Club and my mentor, Steve McDermott was was like best friends with Sir Ken Robinson. And he wants to Sir Ken and said, you know, Sir Ken, you know, because I mean, his famous Ted sort of, you know, how schools kill creativity. There's a laugh every 29 seconds. And he asked me, you know, what would

be some good advice for our delegates and our workshops. And he said, well, I think like presenting or speaking is like jazz. I go up with a tune in mind, but I'm prepared to go off on a few twiddly bits. And what's interesting for us as a comedian and as a magician, there's always those improv moments. So if I'm going to get someone up on the stage, I have no idea what's going to happen. And I've got a few stock lines to handle those things, but sometimes some of the great gold comes from these mishaps or just people saying stuff. And I'm finding this really fascinating, which are probably

We'll probably talk offline on this. I'm doing a TED talk in six weeks time. And so to add those moments in there where you're a strict time, I haven't got that flexibility. So it's thrown me off massively because I'm like, well, usually I'm to get someone up and something's going to happen. I'm going to say to me, but I've got to be such on the dot. But I wanted to just talk about this whole idea about structures because you have a wonderful framework that you talk about how you have an approach to humor. You've obviously already talked a little bit about truth, but I want to talk about this idea of the connecting like a comedian.

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rhythm, authenticity and this love language that you talk about. Could you share some of that with us?

Sure, well, I talk about humor as a love language because it's a love language in that it's a way to say things between the lines. It's a way to say things that we couldn't or wouldn't say directly. again, going back to the example that I used, apologizing to your spouse. There's a lot said between the lines, but everyone knows what's being said. And it can be an incredible tool in business because you're telling people, look, if something goes wrong,

And this is not telling jokes, right? This is just reflecting truth. But what you can be saying in business between the lines is often, well, very often, I'm easy to work with because if you are able to laugh when something doesn't go well or sort of smile, diffuse some tension and keep going, not just laugh, you know, like a crazy person when things don't go well, but you're showing you're resilient and you're easy to work with. Those are things that you would not say.

Directly, I mean, maybe you would if you were in a job interview. I'm very resilient and I'm very easy to work with I'm insistent that I am very easy to work with you wouldn't just say that

Yeah

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But you can demonstrate it with a line. You can demonstrate it with how you react to things. I mean, we use it all the time. I use an example of being, because it happened. I was in line at the train station and I was waiting for a coffee and the guy in front of me in line was just being an absolute jerk to the kid behind the counter. And when it was my turn, I got up there and

I just said, he seems nice. and, and the, you know, she smiled. I sort of in describing humor as a love language, I think, okay, what was it that I was trying to say with that? And it was, I see you. I want you to feel good. Yeah. But I wouldn't have said those things directly to the kid behind the counter at the Starbucks at seven in the morning. I see you.

Yeah.

I want you to feel good. You leave there in handcuffs. So if you are a leader, there are things that you can say between the lines. And actually, just not too long ago, I was trying to be coy about where it was, but I was at a big association conference.

Maybe. But there had been some financial, interesting financial things happening and the membership was sort of a little bit up. There had been some very tense Zoom calls and some people, there was some stepping down and those sorts of things. And this all proceeded, it was like two weeks before, it all kind of came to a head two weeks before.

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big three-day conference where people want to go and have fun and network. And there were a lot of question marks about things like is that, how is this going to affect the association and is the event even going to happen? Those sorts of things. What's the future look like? And the guy who was the interim president got up just to do a little welcome before he brought the first keynote speaker on stage. And he said, and so obviously people were, there was a lot of tension in the room because it was the only thing people were talking about. And all he did was he said,

I have to address the elephant in the room. There is no elephant. can't afford one. And it was so small, what's between the lines there? It's, look, yes, things are going, this will be okay. Things will be fine. We're in good hands. I understand your concerns. I hear your concerns. There's just, to me, that is so powerful because also not only did it relieve the tension,

Great. It's that indirect love language there. Love it.

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It conveyed a message and it conveyed a message. Now he had also spent, I'd watched him for two weeks doing a wonderful job of calmly and carefully saying, this is the path that we have decided and this is how we are going to move forward. But that wasn't the time for it. It wasn't the time for that talk. And also how much did he convey? How long did it take to say that line? Two seconds?

Yeah, not long.

How much did he convey?

Yeah.

That's efficient. I mean, that's bang for the buck.

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Yeah. And he's got everybody's attention then, hasn't he? He's got everyone on his side because they're like, okay, yeah, cool. Got it. Right. It's done. You've addressed it in such a fun, brevity way. Now let's move on.

Yeah, and didn't try to solve it. He wasn't solving it. wasn't anything. He was just simply acknowledging it. And I think that can be in leadership communication and in all sorts of communication. mean, for speakers, that's incredibly important. If you're there to give a, you know, speak about DEI and you know, everyone's sitting there going, we're going to have to listen to the sexual harassment thing. I mean, at least acknowledge that they don't want to be there somehow. know,

Yeah.

whatever it is that people are speaking about. you're six foot eight, acknowledge it. Because people are simply to remove it as potential distraction. mean, that's what we do as comedians. That's self-awareness. You don't have to put yourself down, but as comedians and you know, as a performer, mean, it's well, okay, I'll ask you. You're a magician. I know that people have preconceived notions. And, hence your joke, your opener of what's the difference between

Yeah.

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Yeah.

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That is, and you're explaining that. So what's the difference between a magician and a mind reader? I'm assuming it's a setup to a joke that was also going to be intentional without the guy's input, but you were explaining that for a purpose.

Yeah, yeah.

By the way, if you want a tag for that, when if you go, you know, about 300 pounds, it just, won't tell you which direction.

That's nice. That's good. Yeah. Wow. Yeah. That's a nice tag. But it's funny though, because this is exactly what happened to me. So I did a keynote this year. I won't say names. Right. So if they're listening to this, they probably not listen to this, be honest. But I was introduced as the motivational speaker, which was like, oh, fucking hell. Great. Fantastic. Right. We all want to be motivated in the UK. One of the board members came on before me. It was like, was a whole afternoon. And it was, they're all techie people.

And then we're full of introverts because the guy did this from the board. This is the first thing that came out of his mouth. So he's like three speakers before me. It comes out. says this. The last company that I worked at had far much more energy than this room. So it was ice present. We're going to have to dial this energy up. I was like, great, great start, mate. Well done. You've just instantly pissed people off. They said who is room are extroverts. Two hands went up. One was me and him. That was it. I was like, So immediately these are room introvert people, right?

(: 32:15

And he tried the whole tag, like, can I get a whole? Yeah. And everyone, yeah. Yeah. Right. So I was like, right. I was the last speaker. Right. I am the only thing that's in the middle of them getting off to the bar, which is what they really want to do. Right. So I said it straight away instead of like my normal lines. I thought they have fucking pissed off. They don't want to be here at all. So just said that I know what you're thinking. The only thing that's stopping you from getting to the bar is me. So why don't we have a little bit of fun? Yeah.

And you should probably ask because it's paying attention to what's going on, right? Rather than go, yeah, I'm the motivational speaker. Come on, who wants to be motivated?

Yeah, well, and again, it's the same way self-awareness and that's self-awareness, right? You're just acknowledging, okay, I'm the only thing standing between you and the bar. Comedy writing tip, always end with the word that's most important to the joke. In that case would be bar. I'm the only things, it'll make it punchier, a little more impact.

Yeah.

(: 33:09

That's interesting. I'm the only. Just write a timestamp so I can come back to that.

Yeah, thank you. It works either way. It just has a little more oomph.

And why is that? What's the science behind that? Why does that have the umph then?

science. Well, I would say that it's because it's the last thing that you're hears. So it's the word that sort of it, it's the word you give the most emphasis. Often, if you can, you try to find the funnier word or you, you know, I'm the other thing standing between you and the bar, you and the bar. mean, not giving you a line read, but it's a line you can really hit and you know that they're definitely, definitely going to hear that word.

So there's a bit of a bit like recency and privacy that typically people tend to remember that the beginning and the end. So like we always say, like, start off your presentation strong, you know, get the curiosity where it's a prop or something or a line or whatever. So that kind of adds to that in that line, doesn't it? Because they're going to remember the start. All right. Yeah, cool. And then the bar. Yeah. Oh, that's very nice. Very nice. So what did I expect that goal tip there? Thank you. Thank you. I'll invoice you. Edit that out just for like patron members. Yeah. No, thank you. So obviously we talk about self-awareness. So there's a couple of questions here that I'd love to be curious about because

(: 34:19

choosing the right humor for the right setting. Because I've seen this before, like I listened to parenting hell podcast with Josh Whittekam and Rob Beckett, and they often share about when comedians do corporates. I've done a few corporates where I've been booked as a magician and it's the worst traumatic experience of my life. Nobody wants me there. When they find out what my fee is, they're like, I could have gone on the bar and they're pissed drunk. They got they don't want to be there.

So these whole corporate experiences are really bad. And I see this where time and time again, like comedians or magicians, performers will have the same kind of performance as a wedding or something else. So I'd like to know that how do we choose the right humor for a professional audience?

I would say that think about why you're using the humor. You're using it to connect and you're using it, and again, framing it as a love language, as a way to sort of, I mean, to bring people together, but to say things that are important and say things that you wouldn't say directly. When you're using it humor at work in any context, I would say the only appropriate use is for connection. So does it go through the filter? Is this going to connect people? Now, as a comedian, I mean, look, I'm going up there. I guess it depends what the brief is. If you are there, if I'm Rob Beckett,

and someone hires me. I do stand up. That's what I do. I don't give keynotes. I don't do this. You have hired me to be me and I'm gonna go up and be me and you knew what you were getting. But me, Beth, I'm a comedian, but I talk about how to use humor as a tool for connection. So it would be counterproductive for me to go up and shit all over the audience. So it would be fun, but for me personally, and I'm not

Generally, I know people do it very, very well, but to me, even in a club, I usually prefer to take the view of it's not funny unless everyone is laughing. So you can tease people, but you have to sort of do it a smile on your face and make it clear that there's some affection behind it. So I think it's also how you do it. And again, someone who is a professional comedian is going to be more skilled at doing it. I would trust, I wouldn't.

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Yeah.

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I would not give a second thought to hiring someone like Rob Beckett. But do expect that you're going to get something that will be, just tell the comedian that you hire, this is not the Saturday late crowd. Just kind of keep it moderate.

Yeah.

So I'm trying to remember the original question, because I've now gone on four tangents.

can't remember myself. I was just so engrossed into your answer. It was about applying humour in a professional environment. Yeah.

So it's, it's seasoning. So, you know, you don't always need a lot, but you always need some. And that was, that was my wife, forgive me, which she, knows I'm on a podcast. I hope she apologizes to be using.

(: 37:07

Is that the printer ringing you?

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I can't believe it. I can't believe it.

So yes, I am incensed. So let's try to take this part from the start. Since we've lost everything, since we sort of lost the thread. Hold on, I'm just typing on podcast.

We need this out if you

If we could just edit this part out. Okay, let's get back to the question.

Yeah.

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What shall I do again? Like in like a really professional format as if like we're just professionals. Are you ready for this, Beth? So you've never heard of this question. You ready? Beth, here's a question for you. Are ready for this? And Beth, how do we? I mean, I've even lost it now because I've not even looked at I've lost my thing. I was going to ask you. Here we go. I'm going to it again. We'll do it again. This could be outtakes or bloopers, right? OK, Beth, are you ready for this next question? All right, OK, so how do you choose the right humor for a professional audience?

I couldn't be more ready.

(: 38:08

Well, I'm glad you asked me, Ricky.

And if the editing has happened, and please leave this part in, it's because we got interrupted by several things. Phone calls and texts in the middle, and then we both lost our trains of thought, so we've started again. But how do you, you've seen through the farce, how do you figure out what's appropriate? And my overall answer was you're using, at work, in a professional environment, you're using humor as a tool for connection. And connection means, you you want to build trust and rapport. so keep that in mind.

when you choose what you're going to say. humor is a tool, just like a hammer is a tool. You can use a hammer to build something, you can use a hammer to hurt someone. so, you know, have you ever hit your thumb with a hammer? I have, I didn't do it on purpose. So mistakes happen. But I think if you put through anything you are planning to say, through the filter of

Is this going to create? Is this going to build something? Is this going to build trust and rapport? Is this going to increase connection? That's a pretty good filter to run stuff by. Now that's not to say you have to run it through that filter when you're writing your first draft. I mean, if you're speaking or you're doing something, hey, go for broke in your first draft. That's why there's editing. But if there's anything that you sort of think, yeah, I don't know. Think about, well, how could it, is there a different way it could come across?

Yeah.

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Or also, sometimes, I mean, I had client earlier today and he had something and there's just, always a different way to say it. Even if it's something naughty, there's usually a way to say it or to sort of to use a euphemism. There's, there's a way to do it where you sort of, you're bringing people in. You're almost, it's a wink to them and you let them do the math, right? You let them.

And you can also sort of go, hey, get your minds out of the gutter. That's not me. Hey, whoa.

without, you because they will, you can sort of start it, they'll finish it in their own minds. And then, but then you're building connection because you're, you're, you're a mind reader, breaking things full circle. So, so I, I think that's it. And if you're speaking from stage, my personal rule, and it was kind of my rule in standup too, to me, mostly because I hate conflict, but it's not funny unless everyone's laughing.

Yeah. Yeah.

(: 40:38

And that is not just for sort of come by y'all, everyone feels good, let's have hugs. You know what sounds better than 100 people laughing? 200 people laughing.

So, your instinct that something is funny, you might be right on, but see if you can sort of get the version your grandma would smile at. It's usually possible.

Yeah, I love that. That's a lovely response. Well, I've got a couple of questions before we finish the one to ask you. So it's about like how much humor is too much. You know, like I mentioned about Sir Ken's, he has like a laugh every 29 seconds, whether that was intentional or not. But how much humor is too much in a presentation?

It's funny because Sir Ken, I do like his talk, but it's always everyone mentions it to me and I go, it feels a little, to me, it felt a little bit like trying too hard because to me, there's a bit, I'm not, let's be clear, I'm not shitting on Sir Ken. I'm just saying that for, if you're preparing your Ted talk, if you aim for every 29 seconds, like I would be insufferable. I am very good at this. I would be insufferable.

Yeah.

(: 41:52

aiming for that. It's always content first. Seasoning, it's that time of day. I'm having the small strokes. So humor is seasoning. It's not the main ingredient. Your content and your message is the main ingredient. So get your content figured out, get your message figured out, get all of that done, and then go back.

and in your editing process. So then also pull out all the, know, trim the fat that you need to trim. And then once you have your sort of your version two, your version three, whatever it takes you, then go in and look for comedic opportunities for a few reasons. One, because, mean, because one of the things that frustrates me is I will, I love humor and truth. And if I start doing that too early in the process, I come up with some great stuff.

that is off point, or I would have to give four hour keynotes. bring a lunch. Sherman speaking. So yeah, inevitably the best joke that you will have or the best laugh line, right? Because they're not intentional jokes. You're just reflecting truth will be connected to something where you go, I don't have time for that. But humor is seasoning. And even when I work with a lot of people who are very earnest or they say my topic, you know, what do you do? I'm a forensic accountant. Humor is seasoning. So using torturing that metaphor.

But if you think of it like salt, not everything needs a lot, but everything needs some. So sometimes all you need are a few flakes of sea salt on chocolate, and it's transformative. And if you use too much, it's just weird. So it has to be in balance. For someone who's like me, I mean, the word humor is in, you know, my tagline and it's on my business card. So if it would be out of balance, do not get some laughs.

you

(: 43:45

I mean, that actually becomes a pain because people go, she's the, I have to really ask people, please just read the intro that I wrote for you. A lot of people like to sort of read the IMDB page or sort of read everything. And then it comes across as she's the president of comedy. And then you just get a lot of people with their arms crossed going, dazzle me.

Yeah. That was my story where they read me out as a motivational speaker. Where have you got that from? Because that didn't say that in my intro. Yeah. Yeah.

Hang in there people. Yeah, exactly

Yeah, come on then mate, motivate me. Well, I've got a couple of quick fire rounds and I've created something called the Locke and Sherman laughing stock. So you ready for this bet? I think the Locke and Sherman sounds pretty cool. I think there's some sort of magic there. Who knows, right? But this is a quick. Yeah, you can answer as long or as little as you want. I know you got to go soon. This will be quick, but quick fire questions. Are you ready? Right. Best quick joke that you use when acknowledging something awkward on stage. It's real life observation moment.

The Lach and Sherman laughing stock.

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Or a law firm.

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I am.

(: 44:41

Exactly as planned. she funny? Well, I was at a party once and I saw a friend that I hadn't seen for a while, sort of a friend of a friend, but we'd worked together. And I wouldn't say funniest, I would say most awkward that became funny. And I said, how's work? And she said, I'm not working there anymore. And then I asked about the guy she had been seeing for quite some time and she said, we're not together anymore.

And then I remembered that her mom had been sick and I said, how's your family? And she said, how's your mom? And she said, she passed away. And this is someone who was also a comedian, but by the end of it, we were both crying and laughing. It was literally like, wow, just, every time I thought, well, that's awkward. Let's try to make this less awkward. And poor Cece, just, yeah, it just, I think I was like, oh, like.

Yeah.

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Struck out probably four times more than three. Yeah. Why don't you just tell me how you're doing? Can I just give you a hug?

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Wow. You've just made me think back to a time. I don't know if you do this as a comedian where when you say jokes that you're doing it all the time, it starts just become like your tagline or it's just, you know, it's part of routine that you just become like unaware. You know, it's like unconsciously competent. It's just happening. You just don't realize where you are. And I was doing this. I do this trick at the end of like a wedding or a big corporate where I do. Everyone gets their phones out. We all time some numbers and it becomes this beautiful number. It's always like their wedding day and something special. So I always ask this question, which is, John, all the groom, you know,

s most often go for like, Oh,: 2019

Jesus Christ. Anyway, right back to these. Are you ready? Right. Before I

I'll give you one more from stage that I did and I had a big show at the improv up in Northern California, but I can't remember where it was, but it's a great venue. It's an old vaudeville theater that's still a theater. so it was really, you you do all the comedy clubs and they're fine, but it's just like your sticky floors and things like that. And this is really cool. Art Deco theater. It's a real stage. And I went up there and having a good show and I was doing, I was talking to the crowd a little bit and there was a woman in the front row who just

wasn't laughing and sort of then asked her a question she didn't answer and I don't remember exactly what I said but it was along the lines of sorry should I say it louder do you need to lip read and the person who was sitting next to her said she is deaf. I thought she was just trying to sort of not acknowledge me and I went okay well that's awkward.

(: 47:39

Swallow me up now. Yes, God God Well, I can say that there has been times where I've done a magic trick Which is like a six-minute trick and it's ending a minute because like we have this thing in magic called multiple outs So the magician always wins, right? No matter what happens and there has been times I've had to pull that out. I've just get off quickly because I'm like I'm not saying anymore. I'm just rude it Okay comedy hero or heroin that you would love to collaborate. That was not heroin the drug, but you know what I mean? Yeah

Who do I want to do lines? Who do want to shoot up with?

Who do you want to do a live with? Let's go for it, come on.

Well, a lot of my heroes, I mean, they probably would, know, Lenny Bruce and I don't know about collaborate with, but I grew up listening to, I didn't listen to music growing up. I grew up listening to comedy albums and there's a few in the shot behind me.

through.

(: 48:29

But think it's flipped, so they might be backwards. So get a mirror if you're watching. But I grew up listening to George Carlin, lot of Bill Cosby. He was from Philadelphia. Now I will say it was before we knew. This was the 80s when I was listening. We didn't know. But yeah, I mean, there's a guy called Tom Lehrer who did funny songs. There's a guy called Alan Sherman. No relation, unfortunately, but he did funny songs. If you've ever heard Hello Muddah, Hello Fadda, here I am at. Don't sing on the podcast. Yeah.

I'm sorry tell that one, but yeah.

Well, also behind me, Mel Brooks. Mel Brooks is my dad loved Mel Brooks and that was the, mean, from the time I was a little kid, I mean, that just absolutely shaped that. That is my comic point of view in a nutshell and my family.

I love it. What's one humorous misconception about comedians?

we're funny offstage. Actually, I won't say that we're funny offstage, but that sort of that we're always on.

(: 49:22

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Are you a bit like miserable or like, cause they say like a lot of communities are like quite depressive people. Like that's why they get a lot of their stuff, but.

Yeah, well, look, if you think of humor, mean, lot of humor is also a defense mechanism. And very often, this has been having worked for a lot of people who were very, very successful. Humor is often a defense mechanism. It's a self-protection. You know, it diffuses tension, but often the reasons that people get very good at it are because there's been a lot of tension to diffuse. And it is a wonderful tool for shifting perspective. But people

who really develop that muscle considerably. Think about what it is that they've had to overcome. And it's awful, often really horrible, horrible stuff. mean, people that I have worked for gigantic names in the business, I have heard stories of their upbringing. It's, well, I always said to my parents, if you'd been worse people, I'd be more successful. So I think when you develop any coping mechanism to such a high degree, you sort of have to look at what's behind it. So that's why I think there's

There's often sort of the sad clown cliche, but that's often why it's, you But also, mean, comedians, we tend to be introverts and it's a weird mix of, you can sort of, there's an on-off switch. So on stage in front of a ton of people, it's a pleasure. But the intimacy, for lack of a better word, of interacting with one-to-one or just a few people, that can be really intimidating and terrifying.

So we're often very shy people, even though we can get up in front of a few hundred people.

(: 51:01

Yeah.

So it's not necessarily that we're miserable off stage. It's just, it's often shy. You see someone on stage just killing it, just getting huge laughs. And then you see them after the show and they're at the bar afraid to make eye contact with anyone.

Yeah.

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Yeah, well, I am. think I'm an ambivert. I thought I was like an extrovert and I think I'm an ambivert because when I'm performing, especially where I live, where people recognise me, I'm not famous at all, but they recognise me because of all the weddings and events that do. So when I go into Tesco, they're like, Ricky, how am I? I'm I just buy my milk. I'm fucking miserable. I just want to get on with life, you know, so I can't imagine like what it'd be like for comedians in public, you know, like, hi, you know, like, yeah.

Do you get, tell me a joke. mean, do you get, do me a trick.

Yeah, I'm with my wife and my daughter at the minute. I haven't got anything with me. come on. Come on. Can make some of this about not know.

I'm gonna make these cookies disappear.

Yeah, yeah, just close your eyes. I'm going to disappear. You ready? Gone. That's all I do. All right. Last question for you. This one was generated from chat GPT. So I mean, who knows where this could go. Right. You ready? Describe your humor style as an ice cream flavor.

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dear.

(: 52:09

That's why I hate ChatGBT. I am not going to dignify ChatGBT with a response, so I'm just going to tell you the flavor that I had the other day at the Gelato place here in London that was unbelievably good, which was ricotta sour cherry. It was a very pretentious place, and I'm telling you, cheesy ice cream, I had my doubts, but man was it good. So suck it, ChatGBT.

Love it. Good. Got it. All right. So we'll finish up then, Beth. So what's one like actionable humor tip that listeners can use right away? Obviously, they're going to obviously want to book you, of course, so which will plug in a second. But what's one simple thing they could go do now and start adding more humor in the communication?

Remember that truth is funny when you're presenting or when you're trying to diffuse tension, when you're trying to do any of that, instead of trying to add jokes, add truth, especially if you're putting for presentations, think about what's the next thing that happened. Add detail. What's the next thing that happened? We all tell our origin stories of, well, I got into this because I got fired from that. And we'll tell us about the day you got fired. mean, we all talk about storytelling now and the importance of storytelling. Storytelling is fantastic, but humor.

storytelling, if you can add humor to your storytelling, that is rocket fuel. So give us more details, give us more truth.

Love that. But if people want to find out more about you, they want to come work with you, tell us where can they find you?

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Well, find me on LinkedIn. Very easy to find me on LinkedIn. It's Beth Sherman. But you can also find me at bethsherman.com. And I speak on how to use do workshops on how to use humor as a tool for better communication. And I work one-to-one with speakers to help them make their talks more engaging so that they get booked more often and make more money doing it.

Brilliant. Thank you so much, Beth. Thanks for coming on Unlocked. Thank you.

My pleasure. Thanks for having me.